The Gaming Den

Could you tell me about Henry Kissinger? "Fry & Laurie" was sadly silent on him, so all I have ever heard of him was seriously one line in Fawlty Towers:

"still, you never know when Henry Kissinger is going to show up."

So what makes him a right [EDITED] that does not deserve the prize?

He got the award for signing the Vietnam peace treaty. However he was one of the main engineers of that very same war, its main supporters in its continuation and escalation, a backer of the bombing of peasant villages and other war crimes and a major architect of the insane paranoid doctrines of aggressive warfare that lead to it and other bloody pointless wars.

But really thats just one bullet point on his incredibly long CV as a professional war criminal. Books have been written and documentaries have been made exclusively about Henry Kissinger's personal role in US war crimes.

Here's a mere Bajillion Word Summary of just the things he should be prosecuted for the known but unproved and utterly inhuman but not technically criminal excluded.

And because one link is not enough to fit even the shortened summary in here is part 2

To put it in really really short. You know how commie hippy non-american traitor types are always talking about how the US goes around kidnapping, torturing, killing, backing violent blood bath undemocratic coups, getting into pointless endless wars with massive civilian casualties and war crimes etc... Well Henry Kissinger is basically the center of like I don't know, 30+ years of that. Seriously name a US war crime or crime against humanity in living memory odds are good Kissinger is at least partially responsible for it.

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/0 ... 14907.html

No disrespect meant to the man or his supporters, but what the bloody fuck is going on? He hasn't done anything...

12 days in office prior to the closing of the nominations and he won based on things done AFTER he was nominated?

I guess this explains why AIG, banks, and automakers got bailout money. They were awarded before proving they could do any good, in the hopes that they would do something good.

I think we should put this into schools, and just let everyone graduate before they earn it, and let them go into the workforce as untrained laborers and untrained specialists before they earn it as reward for their potential.

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I want to know what Norway was bribing Obama 1.4 million dollars for? Did he pardon Roman Polanski or something?

Uh, yeah, seriously I'm pretty heavily on the Obama side of the massive partisan divide around here, but giving the PEACE prize to a man who has actually RENEGED on his campaign promises to bring troops home and end the TWO WARS his country is still engaged in seems odd, if not downright wrong.

Shadzar wrote:12 days in office prior to the closing of the nominations and he won based on things done AFTER he was nominated?

No idea why you think this is weird. The US President gets nominated like every fucking year. Anyone can nominate anyone they like. Why the fuck wouldn't the Nobel committee consider events that occur in the real world after the nominations are over? They aren't sealed in a fucking box when the nomination names are!

This time around, Barrack Obama probably got nominated for something stupid like ending racial tensions in the US or something. Fuck, some asshole nominated George W in 2001 (before September 11) because he ended the tyranny of Clinton or some shit. Whatever. The Nobel Committee actually reads and considers the nominated people well after the nominations are made, and made a determination that is understandable, if still probably dumb.

-Username17

Koumei wrote:Could you tell me about Henry Kissinger?

Aside from the fact that he had a slow German accent that was parody fodder? Check out the Wiki article.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Shadzar wrote:12 days in office prior to the closing of the nominations and he won based on things done AFTER he was nominated?

No idea why you think this is weird. The US President gets nominated like every fucking year. Anyone can nominate anyone they like. Why the fuck wouldn't the Nobel committee consider events that occur in the real world after the nominations are over? They aren't sealed in a fucking box when the nomination names are!

This time around, Barrack Obama probably got nominated for something stupid like ending racial tensions in the US or something. Fuck, some asshole nominated George W in 2001 (before September 11) because he ended the tyranny of Clinton or some shit. Whatever. The Nobel Committee actually reads and considers the nominated people well after the nominations are made, and made a determination that is understandable, if still probably dumb.

-Username17

I am just looking at every other award given on the planet...there are given for things done, like Taylor Swift getting her award, no thanks to Kayne West. She did stuff to earn it, and Obama, and the Peace prize should be treated the same way, otherwise we need to treat it as a joke, and just go on a rampage for next year and nominat4e all kinds of people like Michael Moore, Ghandi (can you win it posthumously?), Santa Claus, and/or Naruto Uzamaki.

Obama got nominated to force the rest of the world AND Obama to enact on the promises he made. They even stated that was the reason was to spur on the fulfillment of his promises across the world to end the nuclear arms race and for disarmament.

It just still feels wrong to give an award when it hasn't been earned. That is why we elect politicians because of promises. A peace prize shouldn't be given to someone with a standing army that refuses to leave 2 wars.

It just feels wrong, and he didn't even look like he liked getting it in his own speech. Even his supporters feel he should have gotten it after he has done something, not just because he made promises to do something.

Not to mention it was just another finger in the air to Bush like the ones for Carter and Gore. Which is a waste of an award like this. We all know we all hate Bush. Stop giving him any attention and let him grovel and sulk in his retirement in a sanitarium.

Heath Robinson wrote:

mean_liar wrote:I think Ben Franklin's hand over his heart is the point at which I started to cackle.

Someone on Pharyngula just linked to an alternative version. I like the alternative, frankly.

"Shinji did WHAT to Asuka?"

And yet another variation, though I think I was more amused by the Shortpacked version: http://todayontheinterwebs.blogspot.com ... hulhu.html

It just feels wrong, and he didn't even look like he liked getting it in his own speech. Even his supporters feel he should have gotten it after he has done something, not just because he made promises to do something.

I agree. It feels very wrong to Americans, because his domestic issues are currently still stuck in legislative limbo.

But seriously, Cold War In Europe. George Bush started it up again. Georgia invaded Russia. Polish people were left without gas in the middle of winter. Nuclear missiles in Kaliningrad. Nuclear bombers overflying London. It was a big fucking deal, and European people actually died.

And Obama negotiated an end to it. That's something. It's not something Americans (including ironically Obama) care very much about, but it is something.

-Username17

Josh_Kablack wrote:Uh, yeah, seriously I'm pretty heavily on the Obama side of the massive partisan divide around here, but giving the PEACE prize to a man who has actually RENEGED on his campaign promises to bring troops home and end the TWO WARS his country is still engaged in seems odd, if not downright wrong.

Don't you think that expecting him to fulfill these campaign promises within 9 months is a little unrealistic? We're not talking about stopping an internet flame war here - we're talking about restoring stability to and withdrawing from regions that have been ravaged by armed conflict and terrorism for the last 8 years. You can't just drop everything and go home and hope that everything shakes out ok with the brown people.

FrankTrollman wrote:

It just feels wrong, and he didn't even look like he liked getting it in his own speech. Even his supporters feel he should have gotten it after he has done something, not just because he made promises to do something.

I agree. It feels very wrong to Americans, because his domestic issues are currently still stuck in legislative limbo.

But seriously, Cold War In Europe. George Bush started it up again. Georgia invaded Russia. Polish people were left without gas in the middle of winter. Nuclear missiles in Kaliningrad. Nuclear bombers overflying London. It was a big fucking deal, and European people actually died.

And Obama negotiated an end to it. That's something. It's not something Americans (including ironically Obama) care very much about, but it is something.

-Username17

It boils down to many other things and how people feel about who is considered "heroes" in today's global society. A firefighter going into a burning building to save someone. They are trained to do exactly that, and it is their job. The are not a hero. Well in today's world someone actually DOING their job might as well be a hero, but it is WRONG. Heroes are the ones going above and beyond their job. All the US Prez does affects US. His global workings are a part of his job, and him doing his job is nothing special. Also how and why should a war president get an award for peace. He has for 9 months failed to uphold the promises he made to correct ANY of Bush's errors including but NOT limited to pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Instead of pulling ot he keeps having more talks to people wanting more troops in there.

Also he should not be trying to fix the rest of the world when his job is to fix what his white-trash predecessors screwed up. Is there peace in America? Hell you want to still speak globally, what did Obama do in the interest of the nuclear misle tests done by Kim-Jong Il? Did he in any way help Japan and protect their territory the Sea of Japan from the NK missile/ICBM tests? Has Obama ended the Somali pirate problems?

He has done nothing but talk, since before he got elected. So yes Americans don't see any results, and behind the scenes crap does nothing if it doesn't come to fruition....Kissinger. You just don't give a war president a peace prize. It has undermined the faith in not only the Nobel committee, but of Obama, and the US itself in many eyes. He should have had the balls and just declined, on the grounds that he fels he has not earned it yet, like he said. Not take it as a call to action, but declined it until he has earned it. Everywhere from France, to Russia, to South America is calling this award a farce, and it will only further undermine anything he has promised because now people have Obama firmly in their sights to watch for any mistake, and slow reactions to anything. Meaning he MUST get something done during his tenure as president, and not leave it for the next guy in 3 years. Obama will not get re-elected after these past 9 months of flailing his arms and getting nothing done like the weak health care reform he suggested that got even further watered down by congress.

Clinton, Reagan and the Bushes made plenty of promises and American are tired of empty promises and damn well deserving and ready for some RESULTS!

Giving a prize to someone for promises, only further increases the situation that nothing is being done except blowing smoke up people's asses just like Bush did. But at least Bush got things done, even if they were the wrong things. Obama seems to afraid to do anything and get it done for whatever reason.

Nuclear threat affects all, but he hasn't ended it, because Iran and North Korea (which China is supplying with plutonium) are working on it.

So if he wants to do anything in regards to eliminating the Nuclear problem, then he needs to stop having Americans help fund those in the Middle East by getting off the oil standards we are on, and get other fuel sources for transportation, and energy needs working in America NOW, not in 2016 after we have already given them money to fully develop nuclear weapons.

One thing that every president in the US doesn't understand is the concept of "too little too late". Great he thinks people need time to adapt to electric cars, or stupid natural gas ones, or hydrogen ones. The problem is over half the US oil comes from the Middle East.

Not only will it fix global warming, pollution, cause people to become healthier from the lack of carbon emissions, BUT will also go a long way to curb the funding of Iran/Iran/ whoever over there, and the world would take note when the US gets of carbon-based fuel technologies and onto something else. Killing 7 with one blow as it were, which is even better than killing two birds with one stone!

So still he has done little compared to others that has had little impact on the global scale, and what he did probably did more for the Nobel committee than anyone else, so that is why they gave it to him, as well as what they themselves said that is was basically a turning up of their nose at Bush. So if McCain had won the presidency would he have been given the award because he also was not Bush, how about Kerry? It just seems it was given because the person was not Bush anymore. Again, we get it, we all hate Bush. Many cities in the country drafter impeachment proceedings that were not taken serious. He is gone now, so lets fix what he did rather than wasting time just giving him the finger, and patting ourselves on the back for not voting him into office for a 3rd term, which isn't even allowed to happen, so he was gone anyway!

shadzar wrote:Did he in any way help Japan and protect their territory the Sea of Japan from the NK missile/ICBM tests?

Yes. He got China and Russia to agree to co-sponsor a declaration of intent to protect Japan in the event of North Korean aggression. So yes, Japan is pretty damn safe right now, because North Korea no longer has any allies.

Has Obama ended the Somali pirate problems?

All of them? No. Has he provided anti-piracy assistance? Yes. Actually ending piracy in Somalia is a job for the African Union task force on terra firma. Obama is not actually an African, and our soldiers are not part of the African Union task force.

shadzar wrote:He has done nothing but talk, since before he got elected.

What part of shooting actual pirates in the actual face with paratroops in the middle of the night is classified by you as "nothing but talk?" Missile base in Poland? Gone. Russian counterpart in Kaliningrad? Gone.

What constitutes action if not that? Does he have to personally shoot the pirates in the head before it qualifies as action to you? Does it not count as nuclear deproliferation if he doesn't carry the bombs away himself?

Nuclear threat affects all, but he hasn't ended it, because Iran and North Korea (which China is supplying with plutonium) are working on it.

Actually that's part of it. China is not supplying NK with Plutonium these days. Russia agreed to stop assisting Iran with their program. And this happened in large part because Obama convinced them to do it.

Yes. Obama needs to do more. But listen to yourself. He's doing more than any other president since the 1940s. It's not enough. But it's more than most people have seen from a US president in their lifetimes.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Does he have to personally shoot the pirates in the head before it qualifies as action to you?

Well it WOULD one-up Putin, who only punched someone in the face during his presidency.
...
...for comparing him to Dobby the house elf.

FrankTrollman wrote:

shadzar wrote:Did he in any way help Japan and protect their territory the Sea of Japan from the NK missile/ICBM tests?

Yes. He got China and Russia to agree to co-sponsor a declaration of intent to protect Japan in the event of North Korean aggression. So yes, Japan is pretty damn safe right now, because North Korea no longer has any allies.

And China is giving NK equipment to build nuclear weapons with all the same time. Now Obama is giving China the rights to the Hummer which many US armed troops use as the base of a vehicles because of new tariffs on Chinese imports. So again still funding and helping others make nuclear weapons.

Russia is working to stabilize because they still have many weapons also, but China is so close to NK, they are afraid of them.

Has Obama ended the Somali pirate problems?

All of them? No. Has he provided anti-piracy assistance? Yes. Actually ending piracy in Somalia is a job for the African Union task force on terra firma. Obama is not actually an African, and our soldiers are not part of the African Union task force.

So where is the peace at? Just more talks about nuclear disarmament? It sure seems everyone BUT the US is doing something about Somalian pirates, until the US ships get hit?

shadzar wrote:He has done nothing but talk, since before he got elected.

What part of shooting actual pirates in the actual face with paratroops in the middle of the night is classified by you as "nothing but talk?" Missile base in Poland? Gone. Russian counterpart in Kaliningrad? Gone.

What constitutes action if not that? Does he have to personally shoot the pirates in the head before it qualifies as action to you? Does it not count as nuclear deproliferation if he doesn't carry the bombs away himself?

Again I am talking about a long term solution with short term signs of change, not just talking through his ass. How many years have there been problems with the middle east, and when will something be done? How many elected officials have caved in to oil companies, and given trillions to the middle east for oil when other technologies have existed (zero emission vehicles, non-coal electricity) and nobody has done a thing about it. Did Obama put the solar panels BACK onto the White House? They are buried in some garage or storeroom right, so that taxpayers keep paying for that power that could be gotten for free there as well as any and EVERY other government office. Does every government office have solar panels to help cut costs of power consumption?

I want him to do the things he was voted in for on OUR soil, rather than trying to please the rest of the world, that should have had no say in him getting into office, but it seems that every other country is the ones that choose the US president since the first Bush hang on the coattails of Reagan with Desert Storm and such.

Nuclear threat affects all, but he hasn't ended it, because Iran and North Korea (which China is supplying with plutonium) are working on it.

Actually that's part of it. China is not supplying NK with Plutonium these days. Russia agreed to stop assisting Iran with their program. And this happened in large part because Obama convinced them to do it.

China is buying nuclear weapons from North Korea...I had it backwards. China will take the weapons and help NK make clean power....

Yes. Obama needs to do more. But listen to yourself. He's doing more than any other president since the 1940s. It's not enough. But it's more than most people have seen from a US president in their lifetimes.

-Username17

Since the 1940s? Are you Rush Limbaugh or Mike Savage?

Bush did more than Obama. It was the wrong stuff but more. The Vietnam war was more than Obama has done. Again the wrong stuff, but Obama hasn't done shit.

He was elected to run THIS country, not the world, and needs to stick with what he said in one of his first pres conferences.

"I was elected as President of the United States, and I will do what I think needs to be done for the betterment of the people of the United States as is my job."

So far what he has done is bail out more failing businesses, corrupt any concept of a decent health care system and allow even more failure to come at the hands of insurance agencies, bought an automobile manufacturer and done nothing with it but sell part of it to China, sent Americans to their death to fight over oil that we don't need....

It is like Bill Maher said. We voted for and wanted change, and we got it. Sadly though we got the same thing all over again, but with someone who doesn't have the nerve to lead or make any real changes, and all we did was change the color. Gave the administration a new paintjob, rather than sending it in for repairs.

Obama is a black man, and shouldn't be white trash like the retarded hillbillies that came before him!

If he is going to be for change for the US then he needs to make changes IN the US. When he does that THEN I will say he deserves the right to be awarded something...but only AFTER he has shown he can LEAD.

If he cannot lead his own country, to fix it; then how can he lead the world to peace?

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Not the entire world.

Shadzar wrote:And China is giving NK equipment to build nuclear weapons with all the same time. Now Obama is giving China the rights to the Hummer which many US armed troops use as the base of a vehicles because of new tariffs on Chinese imports. So again still funding and helping others make nuclear weapons.

Russia is working to stabilize because they still have many weapons also, but China is so close to NK, they are afraid of them.

So... you're retarded. That saves me a lot of time.

Russia also has a land border with North Korea.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of your crazy, because that's plenty. When you describe China as being closer to North Korea than Russia you lose any possibility of being taken seriously. You are factually challenged. Go... read a map... and some history and economics texts... before you talk again on this or any other subject.

I genuinely don't know what the fuck you think Obama's domestic policy has to do with the Peace Prize. It's a prize for assisting in deproliferation of weaponry and ending and preventing international conflicts. It's not a prize for running your country well or even for running a country at all. It's not a prize for being awesome. It's a prize for reducing the amount of weapons that countries point at each other. Nuclear missiles are gone, which means that he fulfilled the letter of the text better than the vast majority of recipients.

Read a book and shut the fuck up. Stop being so fucking wrong about everything.

-Username17

You can't just drop everything and go home and hope that everything shakes out ok with the brown people.

YES WE CAN!

FrankTrollman wrote:

Shadzar wrote:And China is giving NK equipment to build nuclear weapons with all the same time. Now Obama is giving China the rights to the Hummer which many US armed troops use as the base of a vehicles because of new tariffs on Chinese imports. So again still funding and helping others make nuclear weapons.

Russia is working to stabilize because they still have many weapons also, but China is so close to NK, they are afraid of them.

So... you're retarded. That saves me a lot of time.

Russia also has a land border with North Korea.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of your crazy, because that's plenty. When you describe China as being closer to North Korea than Russia you lose any possibility of being taken seriously. You are factually challenged. Go... read a map... and some history and economics texts... before you talk again on this or any other subject.

I genuinely don't know what the fuck you think Obama's domestic policy has to do with the Peace Prize. It's a prize for assisting in deproliferation of weaponry and ending and preventing international conflicts. It's not a prize for running your country well or even for running a country at all. It's not a prize for being awesome. It's a prize for reducing the amount of weapons that countries point at each other. Nuclear missiles are gone, which means that he fulfilled the letter of the text better than the vast majority of recipients.

Read a book and shut the fuck up. Stop being so fucking wrong about everything.

-Username17

Why don't you shut the fuck up. I said I read the news article wrong...it was months ago and tons of shit has happened since.

Still he hasn't done much. Again even many in America are saying they don't understand why he won it when we haven't seen shit. So why should we feel proud or proud for him. About time Americans became cynical of what is going on in the world, and maybe after this travesty they will look more closely at the other things Obama is doing, and NOT doing.

You want to say a war president in some way earned a peace prize, then you are the one that is retarded.

War =/= Peace. Just go ask the hippies since they are the ones running the country now.

Yes Russia has a border with NK...how many people of the whole country are there?

The point is the worse cases of nuclear weapons are the ones he hasn't even touched or been completely unsuccessful in doing anything about. Get your head out of Limbaughs and the Norwegians asses, and learn to read and think yourself.

Obama himself said he does not deserve it.

But go ahead and do like the rest of those people and worry about gay marriage like it matters, rather than health care and the economy. Debate whether gays should be allowed to wed, since you fear them so much while you let heteros die because of lack of health care, or become homeless because of medical bills. Oh, and those gays you don't want married are also in the same boat because those are the important issues, NOT who can screw who in the ass.

Not like US citizens haven't been taking it up the ass for nearly 2 decades because of the inability of the leader to even speaka-da-english cause they have to take the chaw out of their mouths to be understood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPkgC-mPO9c

Nobel committee...

wants to endorse and enhance Obama's policies

Not for anything he HAS done, but what they hope he might do.

Prak_Anima wrote:And Crissa, yes, he did admit he didn't deserve it, he's still going to accept it however.

How could you confuse Maj with me? I haven't even posted in this thread in nearly a week.

Also, we do have less troops in Iraq as we speak. We're on track for the exact order of operations there that he encouraged before he was elected.

In Afghanistan, he gave the generals what they wanted, and they actually hadn't figured on getting anything at all, so they'd kinda just given up. Hence we're sitting on a point where the Taliban (not our actual enemy) is growing, while destabilizing out allies and our actual enemy is losing ground, though not with the Taliban. So it is a bit more complex there... Afghanistan has been in a holding pattern as we used up troops in Iraq. We actually have more international support in Afghanistan. And local support - they know they'd fall back into warring clashes where the capital is being shelled, not just car bombed daily.

So while Obama promised to extricate us from there, I seriously doubt we will get out any time soon. Too much land makes it too easy to try frontier warlordism there, and the world economy makes it such that any destabilized area affects elsewhere very easily.

-Crissa

shadzar, you are fucking retarded.

Let's look at some of your points:

1) "But Americans don't think he deserves it because he hasn't done anything they care about!"

You know who else said that? Frank, in the post you quoted. The Nobel Committee doesn't give a shit about what Americans think because they are not Americans. They are Norwegian, and so they care about Norwegian shit, like European Nuclear tensions.

2) "I hate you Frank Trollman for saying that he is the best candidate!"

You know who else thinks he's not a good candidate and that lots of other people probably deserve it more? Frank Trollman.

Wow you are retarded.

3) "The Winner of the Nobel Peace Prize should be the person who fixes US healthcare. And you are a terrible person for not liking Healthcare. AKA, I'm just going to ignore the Nobel Discussion and start bitching about shit that has absolutely nothing to do with Nobel shit."

Seriously? Ignoring the fact that it has shit all to do with Nobel Peace Prizes, you are upset that Frank Trollman doesn't care enough about healthcare reform that works? Have you read a Gaming Den thread about Healthcare at all?

4) "I hate gay people, and everyone who knows gay people, and everyone who cares about gay people. Gay people suck and need to shut up and go away!"

Um...? So I guess all that shit about the Senate Finance Committee that has been the number fucking one source of news for the last 3 months is about the Gay Marriage bill?

Oh wait, no one, not even the gay people, are fighting for federal action on gay marriage. Fuck you, shut the hell up.

Kaelik wrote:Oh wait, no one, not even the gay people, are fighting for federal action on gay marriage. Fuck you, shut the hell up.

Not to disagree on your main point (that shazdar is retarded (he is)), but this and that seem to sort of detract from your point that no one's fighting for federal action on gay marriage. Like, seriously, this is going on right now

Crissa wrote:

Prak_Anima wrote:And Crissa, yes, he did admit he didn't deserve it, he's still going to accept it however.

How could you confuse Maj with me? I haven't even posted in this thread in nearly a week.

Huh, I don't know. Sorry about that.

Also, we do have less troops in Iraq as we speak. We're on track for the exact order of operations there that he encouraged before he was elected.

In Afghanistan, he gave the generals what they wanted, and they actually hadn't figured on getting anything at all, so they'd kinda just given up. Hence we're sitting on a point where the Taliban (not our actual enemy) is growing, while destabilizing out allies and our actual enemy is losing ground, though not with the Taliban. So it is a bit more complex there... Afghanistan has been in a holding pattern as we used up troops in Iraq. We actually have more international support in Afghanistan. And local support - they know they'd fall back into warring clashes where the capital is being shelled, not just car bombed daily.

So while Obama promised to extricate us from there, I seriously doubt we will get out any time soon. Too much land makes it too easy to try frontier warlordism there, and the world economy makes it such that any destabilized area affects elsewhere very easily.

-Crissa

Well, hell, apparently we still have troops in pretty much every country we've defeated, such as Germany, so I'm sure there will pretty much always be a US military presence in Iraq.

Yeah, Shadzar seems to have gone completely loony in a way I'm not sure I can understand. It all seems to be almost random vitriol.

Note that I have no qualms with thinking Obama is a terrible president for making promises and not delivering (though really, all politicians can be put in THAT jail cell), likewise the idea that only Americans should get a say in who their president is understandable and fine (though I feel that way leads towards every country being an isolated nation. If you're as big as America, then suck it up, you affect the rest of the world so much that they SHOULD get a say in who runs the place. Just be lucky we don't actually get a vote or you'd be back to being British and driving on the left side of the road, with mandated "Tally-ho, pip-pip!" at the end of every sentence).

It's just the bit where you think the latter part has anything to do with the Nobel prize, all that other random crap you suddenly spouted, and the idea that Europe is particularly meant to rate "American health care policies" higher than "Say, do you notice those Sovjet weapons pointed at us? No, neither do I, they went home."

Gelare wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Oh wait, no one, not even the gay people, are fighting for federal action on gay marriage. Fuck you, shut the hell up.

Not to disagree on your main point (that shazdar is retarded (he is)), but this and that seem to sort of detract from your point that no one's fighting for federal action on gay marriage. Like, seriously, this is going on right now

Don't ask Don't tell has nothing at all to do with gay Marriage, the specific thing that shadazar was complaining about, and in fact, basically has nothing at all to do with 'taking time from healthcare' at all. Since all Obama has to do at all is wave his hand in a predetermined signal to some secretaries and it's done. This in no way detracts from getting healthcare through congress any more than taking a short break to eat lunch.

Yes, I think we can all agree that everyone expects federal action on federal laws relating to gays, since it is impossible not to.

But for example, even most of those protesters would probably agree that the federal government should not mandate states supplying gay marriage licenses. (Okay, maybe not most, protesters are notoriously poorly informed on federalism, but still, better odds than tea party protesters saying anything at all sensible.)

I would actually be OK with an affirmation by the federal legislature that barring same-sex marriages constituted a breech of the 14th Amendment, section 1. The Federal Legislature does not make marriage licenses, nor does it generate the rules for their deployment. But I could see them coming out and saying that rules designed to exclude homosexuals were illegal as the abrogated substantive rights of US citizens.

But while I'm pretty confident in that interpretation, that actually is a job for the courts. Which I think is a big part of why Republicans are getting all up in our grill about activist judges...

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:I would actually be OK with an affirmation by the federal legislature that barring same-sex marriages constituted a breech of the 14th Amendment, section 1. The Federal Legislature does not make marriage licenses, nor does it generate the rules for their deployment. But I could see them coming out and saying that rules designed to exclude homosexuals were illegal as the abrogated substantive rights of US citizens.

But while I'm pretty confident in that interpretation, that actually is a job for the courts. Which I think is a big part of why Republicans are getting all up in our grill about activist judges...

-Username17

I would certainly be okay with Equal Protection shoving it down their face, but that's a lot less likely than what is just as good, the courts shoving full faith and credit up the ass of California Constitution.

And even that's not going to happen for quite some time. By the time it eventually does, we'll be dealing with 20+ states with legal marriage for gays anyway, so that is where I choose to focus my efforts now.